FAFO Live with Crystal Preston-Watson

Crystal: You need to go offline to educate people about being online, and that’s something I realized volunteering with kids in schools. And the thing is that if we really want, you know, good tech literacy, you know, I mean, honestly, there needs to be more classes about just life.

Justin: Welcome to Fork Around and Find Out, the podcast about building, running, and maintaining software and systems.

Justin: Managing role-based access control for Kubernetes isn’t the easiest thing in the world, especially as you have more clusters, and more users, and more services that want to use Kubernetes. OpenUnison helps solve those problems by bringing single-sign on to your Kubernetes clusters. This extends Active Directory, Okta, Azure AD and other sources as your centralized user management for your Kubernetes access control. You can forget managing all those YAML files to give someone access to the cluster, and centrally manage all of their access in one place. This extends to services inside the cluster like Grafana, Argo CD and Argo Workflows. OpenUnison is a great open-source project, but relying on open-source without any support for something as critical as access management may not be the best option. Tremolo Security offers support for OpenUnison and other features around identity and security. Tremolo provides open-source and commercial support for OpenUnison in all of your Kubernetes clusters, whether in the cloud or on-prem. So, check out Tremolo Security for your single sign-on needs in Kubernetes. You can find them at fafo.fm/tremolo. That’s T-R-E-M-O-L-O.

Justin: Welcome to the first ever Fork Around and Livestream. The hope and goal of this is maybe the last Friday of every month, we have more fun with some episodes. We play some games, we talk about some newsy type things, just things that we find interesting. Because that was something that Autumn and I always got as good suggestions from Ship It. Some people loved the conversation episodes that weren’t interviews, they weren’t about specific topics, but they’re just general about software infrastructure, the world in general.

So, I am—again, I’m very bad at saying who we are. I am Justin Garrison [laugh], with us, Autumn Nash, and Crystal Preston-Watson is back with us from last week. Thank you Crystal for coming back on the show and coming for the live stream.

Crystal: Yeah thank you for having me.

Autumn: Whoever’s not watching on YouTube, Crystal’s eye patch is fire. Fire.

Crystal: [laugh].

Justin: Yes, I love it. Our episode last week with Crystal has my favorite moment—like, Autumn—I fell—I literally fell out of my chair [laugh]. I mean, I only have a stool, so it’s not that hard, but also I just, I fell right over. It was great.

Autumn: Like, accidentally, just, like, sometimes I just talk in the filter [laugh].

Justin: [laugh]. Sometimes I say things that’s bad. I have an article I’d like to talk about, by Matthew Duggan. It’s called “The AI Bubble is Bursting”. Some people probably saw it out there. It was just a fantastic take on, basically, Google fumbling Gemini, and then throwing it in everyone’s face that no one wanted, and now not letting people cancel it, as far as if you—

Autumn: I like how you picked the article, but you didn’t pick Corey Quinn telling them about their lives on, like, BlueSky because that was so much better than the article [laugh]. He made a meme [laugh].

Justin: I did not see the meme [laugh].

Autumn: He’s a real MVP. I’m just like, when people just do something really dumb, I just wait for Corey to see it, and then, like, retweet it [laugh].

Justin: Corey will call it out.

Autumn: Again, we are too brown, and we just be waiting for, like, y’all to see it. Like I just wait for Justin or Corey to say it, and then I’m like, “Did you see it?” Okay.

Justin: I’ll repost that.

Autumn: Exactly [laugh]. Thank God someone said it. Okay, but like, in all reality y’all, is AI really going to bust Sam Altman, the CEO of Google—well, so Sam Altman’s OpenAI—

Justin: Wait a minute—

Autumn: —CEO of Google, was there. Mark Zuckerberg was there.

All: [laugh].

Autumn: And, like—

Justin: I didn’t know Sam took over for Google.

Autumn: —yeah, I was—I meant, like… they were all there, right? And I was trying to, like, build up. They’ve already got him signing executive orders, and all these things, saying that they are going to donate and dump—insert bad word here—amounts of money into—

Justin: $500 billion that is not secured.

Autumn: But, you know, that’s what I’m saying. Like, is the bubble going to post, or is it going to wait to take all of tech and all money with it because now we’re—

Justin: The bubble is getting bigger. That’s all—like it is—

Autumn: Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, we were all like, “Okay, we’ve finally got to the end of the hype cycle,” and then they were like, “Oh, but wait.” [laugh]. Let’s make deals with the devil.

Crystal: My thing is that it’s been so, kind of on, like the average person—with, like, Gemini, when Gemini first started to get rolled out, I was like, “Huh. Okay, well, I’m not going to [laugh] use this.” And then, yeah, now it’s like, on my phone because I have an, you know, Android, it’s like, “You must use Gemini. You better use Gemini.” It’s, like, kicking down my door.

Autumn: I went to Google Next and they were like, “You can do all these things.” And they didn’t even figure out their tokenization beforehand, and how they were going to do it. And it was like, token rated for, like, 50 tokens a thing. And I was like, “What are you going to do with 50?” There’s no business or even, like, cool project that you can do with 50 tokens, right?

Justin: 50 tokens? What?

Autumn: At the time.

Justin: Oh [laugh].

Autumn: It was just like, when they first rolled it out, right? So, it was like, you have this big conference, and you’re like, oh, wow, you can use these new features, but you couldn’t really use them. We have rolled out every, like, look how cool these things are, and we still have not proven profitability.

Justin: And that’s where I think a lot of the finding out it’s going to happen, right? There’s a lot of forking around right now. Everyone’s throwing it at everything and to Crystal’s point, like, the general public are aware of it, whether they want to be or not. Like, I switched search engines because I did not like Google throwing in AI in my face. I’m like, I’m going to DuckDuckGo.

Autumn: You can just do ‘-A’ that’s the best thing I’ve ever heard of, like, lately.

Justin: I am so happy with DuckDuckGo. DuckDuckGo has a setting to, like, just don’t show me ads. Like, I don’t get, like, the top sponsored ads anymore. Like, just, oh, just turn that off? Yeah. Don’t need it.

Autumn: I appreciate not having ads, but its searches are not as good. It’s like old Google, which—

Justin: It feels like old Google, which I am used to as an—

Autumn: —parts of it—

Justin: Old man that doesn’t want to change. I know the tricks of old Google.

Crystal: You’re like, “Back in my day…” [laugh].

Autumn: He takes naps, y’all. He takes naps.

Crystal: Hey, so naps are good. I take naps.

Justin: See? See?

Autumn: He takes naps and drink Dr. Pepper like the geriatric friend he is.

Justin: How are you coping without naps and Dr. Pepper [laugh]?

Autumn: Three or quad-shot chais. That’s how.

Justin: Wow.

Autumn: Like, you get, like, halfway, and you’re like, oh, am I caffeinated enough, or is this anxiety, or is this the world? I can’t tell [laugh].

Justin: My Ben and Jerry tasted good last night. That was…

Autumn: How much coffee and ice cream and, like, terrible coping mechanisms do we have to use? Like, I feel like I just talked to my therapist, and I ran through all the [laugh] coping mechanisms she gave me, and there’s not enough appointments for this.

Crystal: I just escape into a world of just staring at the wall [laugh].

Autumn: I have never read so many fantasy books in such fast succession, even with ADHD because I’m like, I need to get lost somewhere, and it can’t be here [laugh].

Justin: Oh, I made the worst decision to read Plunder this week. It is about how private equity has basically ruined the world. And I’m just, like, this was—I—

Autumn: Justin, we’re not reading tech books or self-help books.

Justin: I know. It was such a bad idea.

Autumn: That is not the time. This is not the era we’re in, okay?

Crystal: [laugh]. Yes.

Justin: I started it on Sunday, and I’m like, “This will be fine. I’ll read it this week.”

Autumn: I just sent you a technical book for Christmas. Why are you reading Plunder right now?

Justin: Which one did you send me? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it’s been on my list. I have it at my—yeah, it’s next.

Autumn: When you look at your TBR and you say, “The world’s on fire.” You don’t wake up one day and say, “I’m going to read about capitalism.” [laugh]. We’re escaping capitalism. What is wrong with you?

Oh, can we talk about the data tea party that went on? Because, like, we haven’t had, like, a good episode to really, like—okay, y’all, they took away people’s TikTok and, like, now, by the time this episode goes, it’s going to be old, but like, this is exactly what me and Crystal and Justin were talking about on our episode beforehand. If you make, “Security”—like, we’re doing the quote signs when we say security because we all know this had nothing to do with security—but, like, “Security,” without thinking about how humans are going to react to that, you [BLEEP] around to find out. Or fork around to find out, whatever you want to call it [laugh].

Crystal: [laugh].

Justin: Because be real, as soon as they took away TikTok, everybody went to RedNote, and TikTok is going to, like, give your information to the Chinese government. There was a lady on TikTok basically saying that RedNote asked her for her social security number, and her, like, American ID, and she gave it to them. And she was like, “Yo, I’m giving the information straight to the Chinese government.” And I was like, “Oh, sweet Jesus.” [laugh].

You know, in the Boston Tea Party, where they were like, F it, and they just threw the tea into the actual ocean—or into the lake, or whatever you call the Boston—whatever—they were like, oh, you want to take my stuff? Here, Chinese government. Let me give you my social security number. And I’m just like, yo…

Crystal: I mean that actually brings up a point of that is, like, where I think there’s a lot of assumptions that people who are younger because TikTok is mostly—like, there’s, like, a misconception that TikTok is all Gen Z, and of most people on TikTok or Gen Z, but Gen Z, you know, Millennials, Gen X, there is—

Autumn: I think Gen Z has a different relationship with TikTok. Gen Z, that is where they get—they consume a majority of their media. They use it to learn, they use it for so many things, and we use it in more of an extracurricular.

Crystal: Yeah. But it’s also, like, they don’t have, There’s the assumption that if you’re younger, you have more tech literacy with tech security. And, yeah, that person giving RedNote—who—it wasn’t RedNote. It was just probably somebody on RedNote, and it’s like, hey, all these people are coming over. Will they give me their social security number? And they shot their shot.

Autumn: There was a huge TikToker, and he was like, well, this person moved all my videos over, and they did me a favor. And I’m like, bro, he’s pretending to be you. No, he didn’t do charity. What are you talking about? He’s pretending to be you because Americans are flanking to this platform, and you are one of the most popular tech—like, you know what I mean?

Like, they are so against the US government, for a good reason in this moment, but it’s making them almost like, friends with the enemy. It’s like eight years ago when people were like, Russia is our friend, and we’re like, bro, since when? And now we’re just, like, but we are just—China’s going to come and save us. And I’m like, “Mmm… okay.” [laugh].

Justin: When I really—there’s a point of rebellion, of like, I just want to do the most extreme thing it’s like a kid of, like, well, forget you, I have a 11 p.m. curfew. I’m going to stay out till 5 a.m. right? Like, I mean, we try and go extreme as possible.

Autumn: When we have children, when you tell them not to do something, what’s the first thing they do?

Justin: Exactly.

Autumn: What is their favorite thing to do [laugh]?

Justin: And, like, that side of rebellion is one thing, and then the other one of just people taking advantage of the situation as, like, I know people that literally sent money to an African prince for their inheritance, right? Like, that was just, like, email chains—

Autumn: Oh, my gosh, really?

Justin: —was a thing, yes. Yes.

Autumn: Still. We still doing that?

Justin: Not anymore. Like this was the thing that email and official-looking messages happened decades ago. And people took advantage of the new technology, whatever people were flocking to it, and just not experienced what they were doing. And now it’s happening again with just new platforms. Data is being used in so many more new ways that people don’t even know what it’s capable of.

Autumn: That, and we’re like, really between a rock and a hard place. Do we give it to American companies who’ve lost their whole mind and are trying to be evil? People are like, do we want to give it to, like, another government? For one, I’m not ever for giving your information to an oppressive government in the first place because look at how they treat their own people. But first of all, we don’t educate people. Like, to Crystal’s point, that is one of the most important parts of all of this.

And it’s even worse because the propaganda that TikTok chose to spill when they went off and came back on, you now have a bunch of 20-year-olds, and all they know about the getting rid of it and going back is that message that TikTok gave them. And it’s getting to a point where we’re using social media now because social media and the way that we consume the internet is a lot of way that we get news, how we get current events, how people learn things. It’s becoming the source of truth, and it is also becoming the best way for them to get propaganda out there. So, now you have to really teach our kids to question everything, and we have to really educate them on, like—and not even just our kids, but like, older people, everyone. Because think about it, how many grandmas are sharing pictures of, like, plants that are not real, but they’re AI right now? Or like, all kind of stuff. Like, I’ve had to sit all the grandparents down and be like, this is not real. This is how we look for AI and—

Justin: Pick out the fingers [laugh].

Autumn: Yeah. So, what stops people from just getting angry over the next thing, so they can use that to—you know, like, look at the immigration laws and everything that’s happening right now. It’s going to be so easy to make bad people, supposedly bad people. All you have to do is get out enough media saying these people are bad. Just the crazy things I saw in the 24 hours I was on TikTok after it came back, I was like, oh, wow. This is what we’re doing. It changed real quick. Like, there’s some stuff on there that you were like. Oh.

Crystal: I think mainly when it comes to low tech, you know, kind of low tech literacy, and also rebellion, it’s a dangerous combination, I think, with the whole situation with TikTok, there are a lot of people that I don’t think it was that deep. It was more of, like, how dare you take this away. It wasn’t so much that they thought they were trying to stick it to one government over another. It was more of, this is something that I enjoy. You know, it’s something that brings me enjoyment, or it is a coping mechanism, and you’re taking it away, and so I will rebel, and not really thinking about, whoa, I’m rebelling, but could that rebellion actually be—like, that human behavior, you know, that’s something that I think really people don’t understand. Like, if you’re in technology, you really have to understand humans because if you don’t, you get things like that. It’s like, hey, I’ll give you all my information because I am pissed. I’m pissed off, and I want to show it.

Justin: Yeah, once you get to the ‘I’m angry’ moment, it gets really hard to have any sort of rationalization about, like, what should you do.

Autumn: Not just that, but they don’t even know half of America that is just straight consuming media right now, a lot of people have no idea about anything that involves their data. They have no idea about these different governments. They have no idea. Like, they don’t have the education—

Justin: Or even about how easy it is to track. Like, tracking data in browsers. And so, like, they don’t know that anything they click on is—

Autumn: Think about when Snapchat turned on, the location for your photos, and how long and how much effort it did to tell people, like, turn that off. And people would be like—or just the—okay, think about the regular stuff on Facebook. When people do those quizzes, you know, those quizzes, and they’re like, “What’s your name?” And I’m like, “Bro.” You just gave them ever password you’ve ever had.

All: [laugh].

Crystal: [crosstalk 00:15:39].

Autumn: Stop. Like, I had to, like, all the grandparents, stop it [laugh], you know? Or, like, checking into certain locations, and you’re like, as a former military spouse, there would be people who would be like, “My husband’s gone and I’m so sad. Checked in at home,” and I’m like, “Are you trying to tell everybody you’re home alone? Stop it.”

Like, you know what I mean? People just—we can live in this new world that we weren’t conditioned and educated to live in, and while it’s super fun in a lot of ways, like, you know, I love me some internet peeps, but education of how to survive, and live in this world, and be safe has not caught up to where we are.

Crystal: Years and years ago, it got a temp job at a—you know, it was one of the companies that were early kind of, you know, mid-2000s where you could store your photos online. And I was a community moderator there. And the things, like—one, that was a horror [laugh]. It was a horri[BLEEP] job because [laugh]—

Justin: I bet you [crosstalk 00:16:37] in your cubicle at that one.

Crystal: Yes. Yes.

Justin: That sounds—I’m just in a—

Autumn: Girl, I’ve been a mod—

Justin: —fetal position.

Autumn: Moderator for things, and it’s hoarding adults. It’s a babysitting adult. And it’s—

Crystal: Well, with this job, I just had to look at pictures to vet to make sure there wasn’t anything that would violate terms of services. But the things that people put thinking, well, I paid for a private folder, so nobody will ever see these, but I am seeing these, and I’m just like.

Autumn: How much did you get paid for this job?

Crystal: Oh, not enough. Not enough.

Autumn: Oh no, it was not enough.

Crystal: It was not enough. I was doing this job, and I was working another job, so I was sleeping maybe three hours a night.

Autumn: Hugs. Virtual hugs.

Crystal: [laugh]. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we had to look for all the worst stuff on the internet. But the thing is that, you know, thankfully I didn’t come across any of the worst stuff, but yeah, the things that—

Autumn: There are levels of worst stuff. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I can think in my head several levels that should not be on LinkedIn or YouTube, but like, just as a woman, the pictures that we get sent on the regular, and then, like, there’s so many worst of, like, what people do with, like—

Crystal: But I mean, just, it’s just that, I think, you know, a lot of people, it’s like, it’s private. I paid for privacy. I paid for security. But the thing is, it’s like, unless you are hosting things yourself, like, yeah, nothing’s private. And so, you know, all these people are just storing—they just amaze me, they’re storing all these pictures, just people, just naked, busting it open. Like all—[laugh]—[unintelligible 00:18:14]

Autumn: Girl, the stuff I’ve had to, like, give advice on, and I’m like, you know, this is going to the cloud, right?

Justin: You know what cloud back up is? This is, uh—

Autumn: Also, like, when it comes to dating, I’m so petty, I will draw pictures on, like, the stuff and send it back to them, and be, like—

All: [laugh].

Autumn: —I’m like, I just, like, they’ll be, like, “What’s your Snapchat?” “I want you to know beforehand, I will screenshot this, I will draw pictures, I will send it to my friends to make multiple iterations, and I will send you back characters. Don’t do it. I’m telling you beforehand, don’t do it.” It’s really effective. I’ve only had to draw pictures once [laugh].

Justin: Crystal, do you have anything you wanted to talk about.

Crystal: Yes, and it actually kind of it goes with some of the stuff that we were talking about, and I don’t know where to put it, but I put it in the chat. One of these chats, somebody will get it, but it’s from, I always for—I, you know, it’s like, so Ars Technica, I don’t—I always—I’m like, Technica—but so it’s about where, like, an ex-prosecutor here in Denver, that’s where I am. And so mainly, there was a case dealing with, like, harassment, but it looked like some of the evidence was falsified or made up. And I just want to read this one section of—so this is where the police were trying to—they asked the person for their laptop and cell phone, and this is the paragraph. It’s like, “First she said she managed to drop her phone into a filled bathtub. When she pulled the phone out of the water and found it, it was not working. Troy went to her laptop in order to make a video call. When the call ended, she then knocked over a bottle of water directly onto the computer, which was also taken out to commission.” But the thing is, so she thought, yes, I did it. This is done. They can’t get this stuff. Not knowing—

Autumn: It’s so cute when they—

Crystal: —that the cloud—

Autumn: Have no idea, like, how you look up—

Crystal: The cloud—

Autumn: And do forensic, like, computer forensics.

Crystal: [laugh].

Autumn: Like, it’s so cute. It’s just like, “Aww, you thought you did something. Like, that’s adorable.”

Crystal: The lack of people not knowing, it’s like, unless you were going in and actually turning off settings, the cloud will—

Autumn: Not even just the—

Crystal: —[unintelligible 00:20:33] this.

Autumn: —cloud. If it was just your hard drive. Like, you know what I mean, like, unless you’ve done something to truly destroy that hard drive, honey, water ain’t going to do it. Like, it might make it where it’s going to suck for you to use it, but as far as getting rid of all the dirty deeds you did, it does not.

Crystal: But it kind of goes back to the whole tech literacy, where people are still, like, really behind, and they think, well, if you pour water, you know, on your phone or your laptop, then, yeah, it’s out. It’s like, the scene in the Matrix, where—does he, like, destroy, I’m I might be confusing with this, with The Core, which is probably, people say it’s one of the worst, like, science movies ever—but, like, there’s a scene where he’s, like, trying to, you know, ruin his hard drives with, like, magnets and things like that. And I can only imagine there’s probably somebody the police are knocking. They're going to come to their computer, and they’re taking just, like, a random magnet off their, like, fridge.

Autumn: Okay, but how many times have you had a discussion and you’re like, “Honey, that only happens in movies.” Like that’s not how any of this works.

Crystal: I mean, that could happen, but, you know, it’s like, you don’t have the magnet that could completely destroy a hard drive [laugh].

Autumn: You better take a hammer and hope for the best [laugh].

Justin: I’ve drilled hard drives. I’ve definitely decommissioned hard drive servers, and drilled through platters. It’s a fun time.

Autumn: Is it bad that I look at this through the context of crimes? Okay, like people are getting so good at concealing things, just the way that people cheat and just do all that stuff and, like, crimes, you know? Like, I’d be watching, like, crime shows and American Greed, and I’m just like, people are so creative when they want to do bad things. Is it bad that I’m, like, a little hopeful that at least people haven’t gotten so smart that they can just do completely terrible things?

Justin: When tech literacy, like, when someone knows what’s going on and they want to do something bad, it is—

Autumn: Scary.

Justin: Wild, right? It’s just like, oh—and because you think about it, like, that actually wasn’t that hard, right? But I’m reading this article and, like, it says, “Ms. Choi had texted the inappropriate messages to herself. In addition, she changed the name in her phone to make it appear as though”—the other person—“Was the one who had sent them.” Like, she’s like, changing her contact, texting it, screenshotting it. I mean you need to, like, Photoshop that.

Autumn: I’m so glad she's bad at it, you know what I mean?

Crystal: Exactly.

Autumn: Is that bad? At first, I was, like, going to ask you guys a question, like, how do we educate people so they’re better? And I’m like, damn, we shouldn’t educate them on everything because this was a hot mess, just using stuff for evil out here.

Justin: Education can’t keep up, just like policies can’t keep up, right? Like, the technology and the use cases move too fast to try to—

Autumn: I don’t know if that’s true. I think policy can’t keep up because it’s a bunch of old dudes, and they just don’t want to keep up. Like, be real. Did you see the collection of the five dumbest things that Congress said to the CEO of TikTok? It brings me joy. They asked him three different times if he worked for the Chinese?

Justin: Oh, right. He’s Singaporean. He’s, like—

Autumn: Yeah. Okay, but wait. First of all, if you worked for bad people, would you tell Congress? You know what I mean? Like, what’s he going to tell you? Yes? And then the fact of like, the man’s from Singapore, and he lives in LA [laugh]. And then they were like, if you’re on airplane mode, can it connect to the airplane and take it over? Bro, that’s not even what airplane mode does, you know what I mean?

They go and they get witnesses, and they get people who are lobbyists, or they get people who are subject matter experts. They did not do one ounce of due diligence to try to get—they have access to so many people, and they could have had someone explain things to them so they could have been better prepared to do that. They chose not to. That was not just lack of education or because they’re old. People pay people in tech a lot of money to consult for a lot of things, and nothing is stopping them from consulting for education or policy. That’s giving them a pass.

But what can we do with our communities to educate people? Like, just with the fact of what’s going on, I’ve tried to make it a point on telling people, use Signal. This is why. Be careful when you’re talking on here, and on different places because we have to protect each other going forward. When it comes to people doing good work, the only way that we are going to be able to get anywhere is working together and educating our communities. So like, what can we do, as far as what’s going on in this world, to educate people in a real way that we’re being impactful and helping people?

Crystal: Partially, it is actually, the education needs to happen offline. You need to go offline to educate people about being online, and that’s something I realized volunteering with kids in schools. And the thing is that if we really want, you know, good tech literacy, you know, I mean, honestly, there needs to be more classes about just life.

Autumn: Girl, yes. Like, I love theoretical and I love, like, deep science, but sometimes I’m, like, you guys skipped some [laugh] stuff that was pretty important.

Crystal: I was volunteering with some kids, and they were, like, seventh grade, and I had that kind of misconception that, oh, they’re going to be so much more up on things than me, and I’m teaching them stuff about their phone and what they could do, where it’s like, oh, I thought they would be more aware than me. I’m like, 20-some years older. Like, their—

Autumn: I get the opposite. My kids are so creative. Like, my son uses Google Docs to talk to all his friends and get around the fact that he didn’t have a phone. Like, I didn’t know you could use Google Docs for evil, y’all.

Justin: I mean, for me, it’s been eye-opening the extremes of that, where the workarounds they figure out, and just share with themselves at school is wild, and on the other end, my son, when I found out he never knew how to save a file, and he was taking screen—he would draw and he would only take screenshots. He didn’t know how to save the file. And I’m like—

Autumn: Are our kids the same people? This is why they’re friends. It’s getting to the point where I’m learning that instead of telling them no to certain things—there’s obviously stuff I’m going to tell them no, but the workarounds are so strong, just like how we said, that it’s hard to keep up with policy and laws, little minds are sitting there, constantly trying to find a way around your—

Justin: All the time in the world.

Autumn: Yes.

Justin: You got time and motivation? You doing it. Doesn’t matter [laugh].

Autumn: I decided that, like, it’s smarter to teach them why things are dangerous and to show them, like, hey, what you put on the internet is forever. There are bad people out there, and they’re looking for this, this, and that. Because it just got to the point where telling them no for something is only so effective, and trying to, like, do the whole scared or whatever, I just need to educate them on why.

Justin: All the way back to what you were saying at the beginning, people giving their government IDs to some random person on the internet. Like, you can tell them why that’s bad. In a lot of ways, it becomes hypothetical, and it becomes—that’s a theoretical thing. I don’t actually have to worry about it because it hasn’t happened to me, right? And that is a really hard thing to connect, to say, like, this will happen to you, [laugh] or in some way, it’s going to come back to you.

Autumn: Isn’t that kind of like tech in a way, though? Being a solutions architect for a long time, you have to not just explain why something is that way; you have to give people a real-life use case because they will not take you seriously until then.

Crystal: But see, you can do that, but you also have to do it in a way that it’s not counterproductive. It’s like back, like, in schools, when they did your driver’s license, and sometimes they would bring in a wrecked car from drunk driving, or they would have, like—

Autumn: Or the DARE program? I used to laugh so hard.

Crystal: Yeah, [laugh]. Yeah. Yeah, like, they would bring in someone, and then—I remember this—in sixth grade, in the DARE program, we were about to graduate, so they bring up this person. It kind of all reminded me of this show called Strangers With Candy—those who know, know—but this person was like, “Yeah, I’m on the streets, and I lost all my teeth to, like, you know, to crack and things like that.” And there was just a perpetual thing. And so—

Autumn: It becomes almost, like, caricature.

Crystal: Exactly. Yeah, because we went out into the playground afterwards and, like, made fun of it. It’s like, that’s never going to be us because it was such an extreme. Where, I think if you really do it in a way where it’s like, here are some real-life consequences, not so much where it’s like, kind of, goes into the surreal because that person [laugh]—you know, we’re just like, whoa. That’s, like, a character.

Autumn: I think I keep it too real with my kids. And I also have a very dark sense of humor [laugh]. Just like, let me tell you exactly how this can go wrong in the most honest way possible, with all of the real words. And I’m just like, also, please don’t go to school and ruin Santa or all the other things for people because I might keep it too real [laugh].

Justin: I miss DARE shirts now. I had so many DARE shirts as a kid. They were in every thrift store—

Autumn: Dude, it was always the kids that you knew were doing pot in the bathroom that were getting the most prizes.

All: [laugh].

Autumn: I was like, it’s not working, y’all. We laugh at you. Stop it. I grew up in Hawaii. Did they know the amount of drugs that people were doing?

Crystal: Yes. Like, that’s—I mean, honestly, I was such a nerd. Like, you know, I thought I was doing something taking the pencils they gave us and, you know, and covering it up, like, ‘do drugs.’ [laugh]. It’s like, yeah, look at me, I’m a rebel.

Justin: This is a rebel out here [laugh].

Crystal: Yeah, I’m rebelling [laugh].

Autumn: I was the nerd who, like, came from a family that was so messed up, and all my friends were so ridiculous, that I was just the one that went with them to see, like, how dumb they’d be that time, and make sure everybody got home safe [crosstalk 00:29:46]—

Justin: Yeah, the innocent observer.

Autumn: —mom. Yeah, like, and it’s so funny, like, I have the best stories because none of them remember, and I’m just like, remember that one time you did this in the sixth grade? And now they’re all like, I have my life together, and I go to church every Sunday. And I’m like, I remember when you fell off a table [laugh].

Crystal: For me, it was my mother, and she would tell, like, stories about in the ’70. She ended up getting where she was, like, cool. And it’s like, I was going to parties where the drugs were, like mountains next to, like, lobster. And I’m like—

Autumn: Yeah, I want to be your mom’s friend. She got stories. That’s just—I feel like you had some fire story times.

Crystal: But that’s the thing of like, where it made it un—well, because it’s like, well, ugh, it’s my mom, and so it made it uncool. It was real [laugh]—

Autumn: My mom was so embarrassing, it hurt my soul. And now I get to embarrass my kids, and I’m like, oh, I understand now. Ever seen that scene from Spider Man, where the dad’s telling Miles he loves him through, like, the cop car megaphone? I did that to my little brother their first day of college, and my kids, it’s so much fun.

All: [laugh].

Justin: You brought a megaphone?

Autumn: No, I just screamed really loud [laugh].

Justin: I’m bringing a mega—that sounds great, actually.

Autumn: Carter oh my God, Carter’s eye—he died a little bit in the soul. Like, Avante died, and Cole, and [Cameron 00:31:02], were like, [funny, low voice]“I love you.” And Carter’s just, like, “Mom, you’re so embarrassing.”

Autumn: Running Kubernetes at scale is challenging. Running Kubernetes at scale securely is even more challenging. Access management and user management are some of the most important tools that we have today to be able to secure your Kubernetes cluster and protect your infrastructure. Using Tremolo Security with OpenUnison is the easiest way, whether it be on-prem or in the cloud, to simplify access management to your cluster. It provides a single sign-on and helps you with its robust security features to secure your cluster and automate your workflow. So, check out Tremolo Security for your single sign-on needs in Kubernetes. You can find them at fafo.fm/tremolo. That’s T-R-E-M-O-L-O.

Justin: We’re going to transition to our game. The—

Autumn: Is Crystal your victim this time? Because, like—

Justin: The game this week—

Autumn: —I paid my dues, okay?

Crystal: Okay [laugh]. I’m ready.

Justin: The game this week is brought to you by Tremolo. Thank you, Mark and Tremolo for sponsoring all of the month of January for the podcast. It’s been fantastic.

Autumn: Can Mark come back on? Because, like, we just need to gang up on you.

Justin: He’s in the live stream right now. He’s leaving comments. It’s great. So, if you haven’t already—

Autumn: Mark, you’re, like, the best.

Justin: —fafo.fm/tremolo. And so, go check it out. Managed OpenUnison Kubernetes access management. Fantastic as a service—

Autumn: Learned a lot about Kubernetes just reading their documentation stuff.

Justin: I learned about OpenUnison a lot more. Yeah, it was great. It was like, oh, I never dug into it. And I know why it’s important, but I didn’t do it.

Autumn: It’s dope the way that it can all interact with open-source, and that they are still open-sourcing it, but you get the support of it being something that you—

Justin: That’s such a critical thing, right? Like, as soon as you have identity and access in something, you’re like, you don’t really want to do that on your own if it’s going to go down. And also, especially in larger enterprises.

Autumn: Can we talk about the amount of people who are like, “I’ll just build it myself.” And we’re like, “Bro, stop.” But not just that, but I think we’re going to have to get to a point where more things are built in that manner because I want to support open-source, and I think open-source is kind of the best way to do a lot of software because we’re all working together—there’s a common theme—but also some parts of it, you’re going to have to pay for, and you’re going to need to do more managed because it’s a business, and you need it to be reliable.

Justin: Just because it’s open-source doesn’t mean it’s free.

Autumn: Yeah. And you need to pay the people to do it and to take care of it. Like, I think it’s actually just a good model, and maybe, hopefully, that’s where more open-source goes, so that way we can pay people to actually work on certain parts, and the other parts, we can be like, let’s work together and give it away for free.

Justin: And that leads right into the game. That was perfect because we have a special edition of WTA, if anyone remembers—

Autumn: In case anyone ever knows—everybody wants to know, I never know what this man is coming up with, okay?

Justin: [laugh].

Autumn: Like, I get just as shocked as y’all.

Justin: You segued that perfectly. Thank you.

Autumn: I am just as surprised [laugh].

Justin: So WTA, for anyone that is not aware, this was an old Ship It game called What The Acronym? And—

Crystal: [unintelligible 00:34:19].

Justin: —the whole point is to figure out [laugh] What The Acronym stands for. And in this case—

Autumn: Oh, you know, wait, this is my favorite game because it really goes with the FAFO. He tortured me the first time, Crystal. Like, I just want you to know, I appreciate you because I don’t have to do it. I’m going to buy Crystal coffee—when our talk gets accepted, fingers crossed, me and Crystal, we’re just going to send you pictures, and just do hood rat stuff and just send. Like—

Justin: So, we are going to play this game, similar to, if you’ve ever watched, Whose Line is it Anyway, where the points don’t matter, okay [laugh]. We’re going to give you some points, and they do not matter. We’re not keeping track. It’s, uh, it’s points for whatever. But What The A would be something like, I will give you the open-source—these are all open-source licenses—there’s only a few of them that are part of the game—but GPL stands for General Public License, right? That is what GPL stands for.

And so, the first license we will try is—and these get increasingly absurd.

Autumn: Welcome to being friends with Justin, Crystal.

Crystal: [laugh].

Justin: And the last ones aren’t actually acronyms but I just found the licenses amazing, and I had to read them out.

Crystal: [laugh]. Okay.

Autumn: So, how are you going to just throw in—they’re not even acronyms.

Justin: No, that’s not part of the game. This is—

Autumn: Okay, I was going to say.

Justin: So, what does GNU stand for?

Crystal: GNU [laugh]. General… I—man—

Justin: It’s often pronounced ‘guh-new.’

Crystal: GNU. Oh, I’m so bad with these. I’m just going to make—

Justin: That’s all right.

Crystal: —General Node Unity. Yes, General Node Unity license [laugh].

Justin: Autumn, got a guess?

Autumn: I’m not in this. I am off—not, no—

Crystal: You’d better guess, because I’m going to get all of these wrong [laugh].

Autumn: General—wait, G—wait, what is it? G—

Justin: ‘Gah-new’ or GNU, GNU GPL is usually the General Public License. It’s a GNU GPL.

Autumn: General Non-Profit Universe. I don’t know [laugh].

Justin: This is not to torture both of you, even though that’s also kind of fun.

Autumn: Don’t lie. You find joy in torturing. Don’t even pretend like you—like, did you see him live? Did you see it?

Justin: This is for all the listeners to play along because if someone’s in their car, and they know what GNU stands for—

Autumn: Mark, are you on live? Mark, guess [laugh]. Help us. Mark, can we call the line? Like, can we call where’s [Markington 00:36:35]? Somebody like—

Justin: But it stands—GNU Stands for ‘GNU is not Unix,’ or ‘not Unix.’ It’s actually, like, it’s a recursive acronym. So, they put GNU in GNU, and it’s ridiculous because programmers are dumb. So, GNU is not Unix. When the GNU project started by Richard Stallman, he was like, “We are not Unix. We are a separate thing, so we’re going to call it”—and I really don’t like that it’s pronounced ‘guh-new’ because the animal is a gnu, even though it’s spelled that way, and their logo is a gnu. It’s not a ‘guh-new.’ Anyway.

Crystal: So—

Justin: That’s my [crosstalk 00:37:09].

Crystal: Root, yes.

Justin: This one is a little more common.

Crystal: Okay.

Justin: You probably see it around a lot, if you’re on GitHub or something. What does the MIT license stand for? Hint, it’s the same as the school.

Crystal: Oh. Ohh. So, it’s Massachusetts Institute of Technology?

Justin: There you go.

Crystal: Yeah. Okay.

Justin: Crystal gets a thousand points. This is great [laugh].

Crystal: Yes. Yes [laugh].

Justin: MIT license is just the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

Crystal: I didn’t want to say, like, ITT Tech or something [laugh] like that. I was like, don’t say ITT Tech. People going to get mad at you. You going to get some MIT people. It’s like, “How dare you?”

Autumn: Be all up in your comments somewhere. It’ll be, like, “How could you?”

Justin: How about the MPL? I will give you a hint. It is a company public license.

Crystal: Microsoft License—

Justin: MPL.

Crystal: Public [laugh].

Justin: You got Microsoft, Crystal. Autumn?

Crystal: Yes, yeah. So, that was my guess.

Autumn: I thought I was free from the torture in [crosstalk 00:38:04]—

Justin: No, you’re in this game. What are you talking about?

Autumn: I don’t want to be though.

Justin: [laugh].

Crystal: [laugh].

Autumn: Um, I—

Crystal: I’m sorry, Justin. I know you’re hurting right now. You’re like, they were going to get these right [laugh].

Justin: No, no, no, like, I most of these things, like, I would have got them wrong as well. Absolutely like, yeah.

Autumn: I’m just going to start making up ridiculous stuff, like ‘Mastodon Public License.’

Justin: Oh, that’s actually a good one. It stands for Mozilla Public License.

Crystal: Oh.

Autumn: Ohh. I was like, what other M company?

Justin: There you go. Right? It’s like, you have to kind of think it’s open-source licenses, too, so these are, like, open-source.

Autumn: Is Mozilla open-sourced?

Justin: Mozilla, Firefox? Yeah.

Autumn: Doesn’t somebody, like, fund them though?

Justin: Mozilla is the company. I think they have a foundation.

Autumn: Oh, they do? I thought they were a company.

Justin: And then Firefox is one of their products. How about the BSD license? Another school.

Autumn: Isn’t it BSD storage. Is it, like, Boston… I don’t know what freaking school starts with BSD.

Crystal: Big, Silly—I’m making—Big Silly Deal. Yeah, that’s it.

Autumn: [crosstalk 00:39:04] Directory. I don’t know.

Justin: It is the Berkeley Software Distribution?

Crystal: Oh, my gosh.

Autumn: Oh.

Justin: Berkeley school, it came a lot of open-source, and they had the BSD license. Okay. This one’s fun. This is the WTFPL, and you can probably guess what that one stands for [laugh].

Autumn: Oh, my brain only—

Justin: It’s not a trick.

Autumn: —comes up with bad words [laugh].

Justin: This is not a trick.

Autumn: Oh, wait. Is it the bad words?

Justin: Yeah.

Crystal: What The F—What The Fork?

Justin: Yes. Exactly.

Autumn: Public license.

Justin: Yes. I have a fun story about this because I’ve known about this one for a long time. It’s the WTFPL. When I worked at Disney Animation, any open-source that we wanted to use, we had to get approved, internally, and that included submitting what the license was for approval to our legal team. And a piece of software that I wanted to use was WTFPL, which literally is—like, the full thing is, ‘Do WTF you Want Public License’ is what the full, like, name of the license is. And it’s amazing. And I had to send this license up through my legal team and then to my CTO.

Autumn: I would have wrote that for everything, even when it wasn’t that license, just so—

Justin: And my CTO came back—

Autumn: I could say bad words on paper.

Justin: —and he’s like, “I like this license.” [laugh].

Autumn: I know, like, can I just g—look, I will write software and put it underneath that license, just to write it on things. Like, can you do that?

Justin: You can make up a license. And that’s where some of the other ones come in, are from here.

Autumn: Can we make a Fork Around and Find Out—

Justin: We can make what—okay, well wait till the other ones that we get to. Okay, one last acronym that you can guess on, and this one ties back to the GNU license a little bit. It’s called the ABRMS.

Autumn: I’m only, like, two shots into this coffee, okay. Like—

Justin: And this one is as ridiculous as you want to make.

Crystal: Oh, my God, [laugh].

Justin: You’re not going to guess [laugh].

Autumn: I started with Big Bird last time. I mean, can we do better?

Crystal: Like, repeat the letters again.

Justin: A-B—

Crystal: A-B.

Justin: —R-M-S.

Crystal: Always. Be. Recursive [laugh].

All: [laugh].

Crystal: Always Be Recursive Script. Yes [laugh].

Justin: You missed the M in there, but I still love it. I’m still giving you ten points for the effort. That was great.

Crystal: Massive [laugh] Recursive [laugh]—

Justin: Autumn, do you have any guesses?

Autumn: All of the things that come to mind, I feel like should be edited out, and, like, [laugh] we’re live.

Justin: [laugh]. This is live.

Autumn: You should not just let me guess things on the air.

Justin: Do you know what RMS usually ties back into GNU? RMS is Richard—I forget middle name—Stallman.

Crystal: Oh okay.

Autumn: [crosstalk 00:41:36].

Justin: Founder.

Autumn: I was going to say database.

Justin: And so, this license literally stands for anyone but Richard Stallman. Anyone in the world can use this software, except for Richard Stallman.

Autumn: Oh, who doesn’t like Richard Stallman. This is shady.

Justin: Nobody likes Richard Stallman anymore. No, he’s a bad—he’s not a good person.

Autumn: Oh, did he get—oh. But, I mean, like, was this, like, a personal vendetta, or like, was this just, like, everybody was like, “You suck and you’re a bad dude.”

Justin: It definitely went through rounds where a lot of people found out more about him, and he got ostracized in a lot of places, and no one invites him to conferences anymore. And so yeah, there was—we tried to edit him—we had a quote from him in my book, and we tried to edit it out. So, there’s a redaction, but we never reprinted the book.

Autumn: I love that you were like, “We’re taking you out because you were bad.”

Justin: Because we tried, but we had to make it—we had to write a second edition to, [laugh] like, make it happen, and we’re like, “Oh, that’s a lot of work.”

Crystal: [laugh]. Yeah that’s a lot of work to be like… [laugh].

Justin: All right. This one is another acronym, which is BOSS, BOSS—

Crystal: Oh okay.

Justin: And it stands for Black Open-Source Software.

Crystal: Oh, cool.

Justin: And I love this one because the guide on it—wait, I got to pull I got to pull this one up so I can read it—and it said, “I started this for the open-source Afro hair library, the OSAHL, as part of my art practice in 2019. I own the copyrights to all assets developed in the library, including the name, logo, and websites. I’m retaining copyrights, and this is a non-exclusive license for you as an individual to use the 3D assets that are explicitly marked as available to download. The purpose of this license to make the 3D assets developed under the open-source Afro hair license available for any person who wants to create loving and authentic depictions of black people while protecting our labor, culture, and community from abuse and exploitation. By using the library, you agree to uphold the values and intentions behind the work expressed by the following conditions.” I was like, “That’s a fantastic”—

Crystal: So, they’re it’s 3D, like, renderings of black hair? Like, for—

Justin: It was a library to make renderings of black hair, and they explicitly licensed it to you have to make this good depictions.

Crystal: Yes, yes. I mean, that’s awesome because anyone can tell you, when it comes to the black hair in video games, it’s horrible. I mean, I play the Sims 4—

Autumn: Oh, I love that game so much. I haven’t played in forever.

Crystal: Yeah, it’s like, only in the last maybe few years have, like, black textured hair has really been represented, and represented in that it doesn’t look all messed up. And so, this is really cool. So, I like that.

Justin: This license is not an acronym. It is called, I Hate AI License. It’s just, you could just make whatever license you want. And—

Crystal: Straight to the point [laugh].

Justin: —the version was January 2024, and it is called the I Hate The—actually, I guess it does say an acronym in here, the IHAIL, the I Hate AI License. And the restrictions on it, the limitations are prohibited on AI use, you may not adapt or modify for any AI training or usage. If you write the software, you get to put it under whatever license you want.

Crystal: Exactly [laugh].

Justin: This license is called the Don’t Ask Me License. You can distribute the files, with or without modification are permitted on any medium, provided you do not contact the author about the files [laugh].

Crystal: [laugh]. I—

Autumn: That is—tell me you are an open-source maintainer and you are tired of everybody. Like, don’t call, don’t text—

Justin: You cannot talk to me.

Autumn: —don’t write. I don’t care what you do with it. Just don’t bother me.

Crystal: Yeah, that is someone is like, “No, I want to do this. This is something I want to give to the community, but absolutely do not ask me.”

Justin: No maintenance. You are on your own.

Crystal: Yeah [laugh].

Justin: And this one, I think, is really what a lot of companies—this is the license that’s kind of implied, even if you don’t have internal licenses in your source code. It is called the Hot Potato License, and it says, “All rights are reserved to the last person to commit changes to this repository.” [laugh]. “Whoever touched it last, you now own it.” It is the Hot Potato License.

Autumn: Is it really called Hot Potato?

Justin: It’s called the Hot Potato License.

Autumn: Is it real?

Justin: Yes, [laugh]. I’m getting all these from—I will put the link in the [show notes 00:45:42], but I’m getting these from the Bad Licenses GitHub repo.

Autumn: They’re—send it to me—

Justin: Maintained by Erik McClure. I don’t know who this person is, but I found this repo, and I’m like, this is a fantastic resource.

Autumn: Look, Erik. Shout out to Erik, okay? Also, now that I went down the rabbit hole of googling RSM, I can’t figure out the bad things he’s done because that’s not any of these things, but like, there’s a whole Reddit talking about, like, him coming to colleges, and the weird things he asked for in his rider. Do you guys have a rider when you give talks?

Justin: Oh, for, like, someone to write my talks?

Autumn: No, a rider is like, hey, if I agree to come to this talk, you must do these things. Like, I know some people have them and some people don’t. But some people’s riders are, like—his rider is three pages long on GitHub, and it’s giving me life [laugh]. I was like, damn dude, you did bad things, and you’re still asked for all this stuff? Like, and colleges are still having you come talk? What did you do? Because I—look at this.

Crystal: I’ve dealt with, like, I worked in programming for a while at a college, and so a lot of, yeah—like, the rider—because usually riders are more traditionally used by, like, you know, celebrities, and, like, musicians, but—

Justin: And RMS was a celebrity for a long time in certain circles.

Autumn: Okay, but if this isn’t the most tech bro energy I’ve ever seen…

Crystal: But some of them can be very particular, and especially if you’re—

Autumn: They think they—

Crystal: —doing a lot of college—

Autumn: —a lot of them, you’re like, “Bro, you think you’re Mariah Carey. You are not Mariah Carey.” Like, it gives Mariah Carey on Cribs energy. And you were like, “Okay.”

Justin: Who was it—it was Van Halen that had the, you have to remove all the brown M&M’s?

Crystal: Yes, but they did that because they wanted to make—

Justin: To see if people were following it?

Crystal: Yeah, exactly. Which is really smart, putting stuff like that in there.

Justin: And it’s an obvious thing. You can go walk in and say, like, “Oh yeah.”

Crystal: “Oh yeah, they didn’t read.”

Autumn: I love when they, like, find the most ridiculous of celebrity ones, and then they’ve released them. And I’m just like, “Who do you think had to go get, like, Mariah Carey’s favorite toilet paper?” Or like, is like that—

Crystal: But that’s Mariah Carey. I mean, like, she deserves it.

Autumn: I love her. Like, I aspire to do something to be that ridiculous in life. Like, did you see her Cribs back in the ’90s? She changed outfits four times. She cosplayed working out in a mini dress, and I was like, I love this for you. It’s ridiculous, but I love it. Like, okay, but did you read his rider?

Justin: No. I’m not reading right now. I [crosstalk 00:47:58].

Autumn: Not—I don’t need you to read it. I need you to skim it.

Justin: This is—you said it’s three pages. I ain’t skimming this.

Autumn: It’s not about—like, I don’t need you to actually read it, but like, this man sat there and he wrote a thousand line rider. The self-impor—wait, there’s a whole, “I do not eat breakfast. Please don’t ask any questions about what I will do for breakfast. Please just do not bring it up.” What do you have against breakfast, bro? Who hurt you? The self-importance that you have to come [unintelligible 00:48:26][laugh].

Crystal: But it does [unintelligible 00:48:26] up, even though that person might be like—and I don’t know who he is, but I do think if you are speaking, like, you should have a rider. Now, it shouldn’t be, like, three pages long if you’re just starting out. But I actually started writing one, and it’s mainly a lot of it’s dealing with accessibility because it’s like, I want to make sure, if you’re a large conference, having captions, and if you can, having an ASL or whatever sign language, like.

Autumn: But do you see how yours is coming from making it accessible for every one place? And this is coming from, don’t ask me about breakfast.

Crystal: Oh, yeah [laugh]. Yeah, no, I’m not at the don’t ask me any questions. Bring me, like, a single cracker on a pillow.

Autumn: Like, yours is, like, dope. You know what I mean? Like, that’s going to make it better for multiple people that they might not have thought about. That’s thoughtful. This is, like—

Crystal: I love this. This whole episode, this whole show has been, maybe, half about tech [laugh].

Autumn: That’s what tech is, though. Like, you [crosstalk 00:49:30] everything, and it starts to influence life, and then politics, and people influence tech. It’s a mess.

Justin: And that puts a bo—like, this whole episode, we want this to be a little more fun, sometimes we absolutely have fun with our guests. We love talking to everyone. I am already learning so much stuff from people that have been on the show. And thank you everyone that’s been listening, giving feedback. We are still looking for sponsors. If we want to keep the show going, we do need some more sponsors. And again, thank you, Tremolo.

Autumn: You got [dope 00:49:59] editors.

Justin: And Mark says he’s relicensing OpenUnison. I’m curious now which license he’s picking [laugh].

Autumn: Pick the Potato and the What The Eff. Come on Mark [laugh].

Justin: Don’t ask me about it [laugh].

Autumn: I will contribute to OpenUnison.

Justin: You will be the owner until the next commit [laugh].

Autumn: [laugh].

Justin: Fantastic.

Autumn: I don’t even know what language it’s like built in, but Mark likes Java, so I might be able to help with that.

Justin: It’s probably—[laugh]. It’s Kubernetes, so it’s probably dope. But yeah—

Autumn: Dammit.

Justin: —it might be dope. But thank you everyone for listening. Again, Crystal, thank you so much for coming on—

Crystal: Yes, thank you for having me.

Justin: The live stream, and for your last episode. Fantastic. We have more guests coming up. The idea with the lives is to have someone from that month to come on the show because we would like to know the guests a little more outside of the interview, and so that’s also kind of what I’d like to do here. But again, we like to play games. If you have suggestions for games or just cool trivia, those are always fun.

But we also have a merch store out now for anyone that’s interested. We have shirts on it right now. It’s just a couple shirts. I do have stickers that came this week. So, we’ll have stickers if you find us at a conference, in person. Yeah. So, we’re still figuring out some of the merch. We’re designing a couple things. Now, I want a DARE shirt that says ‘fork around and find out.’ Like, the DARE logo kind of thing. Yeah.

Autumn: See, I would put, like, something bad that involved drugs, like, my not doing drugs, never itself, but just the, like, I would just feel like the irony would be hilarious [laugh].

Justin: So, thank you everyone for coming live, and leave some comments.

Autumn: Leave suggestions for names of the chicken.

Justin: If you have chicken names, hit us up. We still do post on Mastodon, BlueSky, and Instagram for now. I don’t think we’ve got a single comment on any Instagram post.

Autumn: I made a comment.

Justin: Well, I mean, besides you and me.

All: [laugh].

Justin: [unintelligible 00:51:49] counting on them.

Autumn: Yeah it does. It was a good comment. No, probably it wasn’t. It was probably just random, but still.

Justin: So yeah, thank you everyone for joining. We will talk to you again next week.

Justin: Thank you for listening to this episode of Fork Around and Find Out. If you like this show, please consider sharing it with a friend, a coworker, a family member, or even an enemy. However we get the word out about this show helps it to become sustainable for the long-term. If you want to sponsor this show, please go to fafo.fm/sponsor, and reach out to us there about what you’re interested in sponsoring, and how we can help. We hope your systems stay available and your pagers stay quiet. We’ll see you again next time.